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Amanda Kramer: Welcome to the Leeds Business Insights Podcast, featuring expert analysis to help you stand out from the herd. I'm your host, Amanda Kramer. We are thrilled to be discussing the latest in digital PR and PR strategies with Alexis Walsko, Leeds alumna and founder of Lola Red PR.

Welcome to Leeds Business Insights, Alexis, and thank you so much for being here with us today.

Alexis Walsko: Thank you, Amanda. I'm so happy to be here.

Kramer: Looking forward to our conversation. And let's start here — by grounding our listeners. How have PR and media strategies changed in response to new tools, including the rise of social media as a platform and the fall of what we would consider to be traditional gatekeepers who used to decide who gets to have a voice?

Walsko: Yeah, great question, Amanda. So, I think, to give people a little background, I actually started Lola Red PR when I was 22 years old, so, right out of Leeds. And how I even started a business of my own at that time was a placement with a national media outlet could carry a company, a brand, a product for years.

So, back in the day, 20-plus years ago, if you were featured in an editorial story in the New York Times, that could literally keep customers coming to you for years, because newspaper would stay around, people would read previous issues, and it was just at the beginning of, sort of, internet search times so that then you, sort of, had the trickle in from people that would find you online.

Today, fast-forward 20-plus years, and that is no longer possible because you have, not only editorial and national stories, like the New York Times, you then have broadcast, like your Today Show or CBS Mornings show, plus all of the news.

You have local, but then you also have social media, you have influencers, you have paid so that you can pay in the olden days, 20 years ago, which is not so long ago, but you could, like, paid would be a billboard or an ad; whereas, today, it is people are paying a lot of money just to get your attention wherever you are.

So, the game has actually changed dramatically. You asked the question about gatekeepers, which I think is so interesting, because if people can't remember 20 years ago, unfortunately I can, but I'm going to pretend like I can't. But the gatekeepers in the past, it would be a reporter, it would be a producer.

Those were the people who were getting information to the people that would, then, digest that information and tell it back to you. Whereas, today, in thinking about that same, kind of, gatekeeper, I love to give the example of, like, Hoda Kotb and the Today Show. So, even just five years ago, this was different. Someone who was in Hoda Kotb's shoes or her, how she would get information was through a producer or through an editor, that was, sort of, the reliance of that job.

Her job has evolved in that she is also getting information, because every time she goes on her phone or goes on the internet or checks the social media platform, there are people who are in direct contact with her or she's being served up stories and information by, whether it is influencers or, again, going back to, kind of, the paid opportunities.

And so, those gatekeepers, although they still exist in some capacity, they actually think that roles and job responsibilities have really changed in the media landscape. Information and data is so accessible today, and companies are using any means possible to get it to the appropriate parties.

Kramer: Great. Thank you, Alexis, for taking us on a journey through where we've been and where we are now. And you've mentioned influencers a couple of times, and that seems to be the hip thing right now. And so, we'd love to hear from you, how specifically did the introduction of influencers impact PR and media strategies? You've spoken a little bit to meeting people where they're at. What has their impact been?

Walsko: Amanda, I never thought I would be providing history lessons, but here I am.

Kramer: Take us there.

Walsko: I think the rise of the influencer really started with, kind of, the launch of Twitter. And the story I was telling, however many years ago Twitter came out, was that we used to follow media outlets, which it was those media outlets that created our influencers. So, a media outlet, since I was just talking about the Today Show, I'll go back to it again. A media outlet would be the Today Show or NBC News. The individuals that fell under it — so, Katie Couric — their voices were not as strong as the media outlet’s was. In the time of Twitter, whether it was an individual broadcaster or a reporter, or if it was someone who just happened to be a mom living in Minneapolis, Minnesota, who had information that they wanted to share, Twitter opened up the doors.

That was the creation of, kind of, the everyday influencer, which has flourished today. And what it has done is that it has allowed for consumers, like you and I, to find people that we potentially identify with, aspire to, feel like we have something in common with. It allows us to feel an intimate connection to them via social media means or other sort of outlets. So, really, in the… I mean, if you want to go back like way, way far day, I was not alive during this time, but like movie studios, that's what they used to do.

They used to have, sort of, their stable of stars. They would then, like, build that star's light and then control what they did. It is this, sort of, taking off of all of the reins and constraints that allowed anyone to have a voice and elevate their voice, which I think has been awesome. But it does complicate the entire marketing mix, because there is another player in that mix that is, up until recently, not really regulated.

So, I mean, if you think to… think through whatever your social media feed is, it was only a few years ago where people had to say, "I was paid for this," or, "This is an ad," or, "I am a sponsor." Before that, it was very much the Wild West.

And I'm not going to lie, it was very fun. And it was fun, because as a marketer trying to get the biggest bang for my client's buck, there were a lot of people that we were able to activate, just because they were fans or we gave them something or there was some sort of agreement. Whereas, today, that transparency has been taken away. But I don't know that it's had a massive impact on results, because I think, today, it is still, kind of, new to consumers in understanding the ad, the sponsored.

And quite honestly, I think great brands do great partnerships with people that that partnership is not about just a monetary exchange, it's actually about a deeper brand relationship. So, that, like, stamp of this as an ad, I think that they brush it under the rug a little bit.

Kramer: How interesting to think about that, and the evolution of these influencers, and the trust that has been developed between a consumer and the influencer.

Walsko: In thinking about how brands work with influencers, so I just said earlier, I would really think about how do you partner with them in a longer term, so as an ambassador. And then, on the other side, treat them in the way you would any other media outlet, which, that is a two-way street.

So, that is asking of them the same things and, sort of, expectations that you may have of working with a traditional media outlet or holding yourself and making sure that they have all of the data and details that you may typically provide a traditional media outlet.

Kramer: A really important point. Thank you for that, Alexis. And this brings me to my next question, which is, how can a brand make a decision about whether or not to use an influencer? And if they do decide to use one, what should they look for in that influencer?

Walsko: I am in the business of saying, you as influencers, so, of course, I'm like, everybody should use them. That's not necessarily true. But I think you have to think about your marketing mix and something that influencers are able to do is get into the nooks and crannies and spaces in between where people are being influenced. And that is in the spaces, like, you think about, I don't know what you do at night, but I quite often fall asleep watching a little bit of TikTok. It goes much longer than I expect it will. But that, there, is influence that I get through that that I pay attention to.

So, the brand that's spent to make it to my email feed, to make it to my Google search screen, also, can make it to my social media screens.

I think you have to think about that. I think in terms of how and why should a brand use an influencer, I did just read this fact, it came through a software platform for influencers, they said that 49% of consumers say that they rely on influencer feedback when making decisions.

Kramer: Wow.

Walsko: If you take that, whether that is true or false, if you cut it in half, that is an insane number. So, 49%, I mean then cut it in half in case it's not true, and that's 25%, that's really significant. And people are really paying attention when they are making decisions. I do think that brands need to ask themselves what do we want. So, if you are looking for sales, there is a reason and there is a call-to-action that I would recommend from an influencer.

If you are looking for credibility, that is a different kind of ask and relationship. And that is their output should be making sure to talk about all of the attributes of your product and service all the time versus a slightly different messaging mix, if you're looking for sales to say, "Buy now, here's the incentive to buy now. Buy two, buy three," or like, "Use more so that you have to buy more," whatever that is.

Kramer: Great. Thank you very much for that, Alexis. And a question that may be on some of our listeners' minds is, "Hey, I use a data-driven approach and metrics to evaluate my marketing approach and the outlets that I utilize. How can a company or brand utilize a data-driven approach or metrics to evaluate the effectiveness of an influencer?"

Walsko: Amanda, this is the million-dollar question.

Kramer: I figured it might be.

Walsko: For anybody that is in marketing or PR, this is when you have to explain gray area. So, I believe in data, too. And that is where this industry has evolved to, which is really cool, but you have to define what do you want out of this marketing initiative.

If it is influencers and it is sales, then there are data options for this. And a really important one to consider would be affiliate marketing with influencers. So, you can give an influencer your links. Those links can take people to a place to buy, whether it's your website, whether it's Amazon, whether it's Target, and those influencers can get a cut of people purchasing your products. And all of that data is able to be collected.

Where the gray area is in that kind of relationship, it is in boosting of those posts — so, adding some fuel and some dollars to make sure it gets eyeballs. There is, also, how good is the content creator's content, which, if you are using affiliate tags to help to get the data to monetize that relationship, it is to their benefit to have a longer-term relationship with this creator because you will ultimately get better creative, better know-how, more partnership in whatever they are creating.

I think it's also important to have a campaign because the campaign will help to give you data. And when I say campaign, I think the most important parts of a campaign is it has to have a start date and it has to have a stop date. Why I say that is that, even if you are just doing an initiative to sell more things, whatever that thing is, at least you know that we are putting our efforts, our dollars, our resources into this one period of time so that you can measure.

What doesn't work is saying, we are going to have an ongoing relationship, and expecting people to create on a certain timeframe and those things to hit.

Kramer: So, as we think about the two different types of influencers, macro and micro, how can a brand decide whether to go macro or micro? And what's your recommendation to brands?

Walsko: Okay. Micro influencers are typically people that have between zero and, like, 100,000 followers. A macro influencer has 100,000 or above. Macro influencers cost a lot of money. Micro influencers have very targeted audiences. They can cost less money, and they help to get to your specific audiences.

A macro influencer, I think of somebody like Tom Brady, to give you an example of, like, the difference in thinking about Super Bowl and ad commercials. So, if … I just heard a Super Bowl commercial, 32.7 million dollars for the time, not even for the production. Your local Chevrolet dealer could hire Tom Brady to do a commercial for them, not at the Super Bowl, but in their backyard, even if they did it at the Super Bowl.

That kind of spend in partnership is massive. Just put it at $10 million plus. It will make you the most popular car dealership to buy your GMC or Chevrolet at in your backyard. But someone's not going to come from 5,000 miles away to purchase a car because Tom Brady said to get it from you. Yet, in your backyard, where your customers are coming from, say, 100-mile radius or 12-mile radius, your micro influencer, because they live there, because they know you, because they have a relationship, it is a much more affordable spend. But also, it is not just affordable, it is targeted because they are talking to people that care.

And that is the difference between micro and macro, is that, if you have the luxury, and if people don't need to be so passionately engaged to make a decision, then macro works. That's why macro influencers for Doritos are awesome. But if it is a much more specialized decision, that is where micro in the targeting and analysis that you can do of followers is really a smart way to go. And to be, like, perfectly honest, in a dream world, if you can do both, actually, the light that shines and, like, the brand halo, that follows around all of it is really pretty powerful. It's just not every brand has that kind of time or energy to put through in the thought into those relationships.

Kramer: Thank you so much for that helpful information. That was fascinating. And I think it gives listeners really great insight into which direction to go. Okay, next, we're going to move into an example, because I think it's a brand that most people listening will recognize. Will you tell us the Love Your Melon story and what those listening can learn from it?

Walsko: Mm-hmm. So, Love Your Melon, you have most likely seen them or heard of them. They are knit-beanies. They have a leather patch on the front that says, "love YOUR melon." Love Your Melon started, gosh, call it almost 10 years ago. It was started by two college kids at the University of St. Thomas in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

As their college project, they started Love Your Melon. And the program at the time was, for every beanie that you bought, they would give one to a child with cancer. Fast-forward so many years, the best news is they gave away so many beanies that, actually, every kid with cancer had a beanie. So, they had to change their program and change their whole business 91ÃÛÌÒ¸ó that they were giving a significant part of their profit to all kinds of pediatric cancer organizations, in addition to giving away beanies.

My part in that, or the part of my agency, was that we met Zach and Brian, the founders of Love Your Melon, at a street fair called Grand Old Day in Saint Paul, Minnesota. They literally had a card table, so, like, a three-by-three table where they were selling these beanies.

And we saw them, and we're, like, "Gosh, you're cool." And we loved their passion. We loved their story. We loved their creativity. And so, we became friends with them. And from the very start, we pitched their business to get earned media coverage. And so, shortly after starting working with them, we pitched them to the Today Show.

So, the Today Show is NBC. NBC is known or has the corner on the Olympics. So, they air all of the Olympics. For Love Your Melon, a gigantic, sort of, plot twist was we worked with NBC and got a five-minute segment that aired during the Winter Olympics. And the response was so significant, their website couldn't keep up.

But also, they touched the hearts of people across the country. And we could literally see the response as the episode or as the segment was airing across the country.

And today, their beanies and other merchandise you could purchase, they have deals with Disney. So, you can go to Disney World and get a beanie with Mickey Mouse on it, and a portion of that does go to help kids with pediatric cancer. So, it is this amazing story. But I think, in being an alumni of Leeds, what I see in this story and what I hope that people will hear in that story is that, there is always opportunity and opportunity, no matter your age, no matter your experience.

I did it at 22. These two founders of Love Your Melon did it while they were still in college. And if you add a little bit of hustle to it and are able to do the work and figure out what work has to be done, truly, anything is possible.

Kramer: Oh, I had chills, Alexis. This story is incredible, and the message, perfect message for our listeners. So, Alexis, how can a company decide how and when to engage your services, the services of a PR firm?

Walsko: That is a great question because there is, you can do it yourself, and a lot of companies have at the very beginning. And that is awesome, and that works. I tend to answer this question in, there comes a tipping point. I'm an entrepreneur. I started this really early. There comes a tipping point where I couldn't do as many things as needed to be done well, anymore. So, I couldn't issue invoices fast enough to make myself money, which meant I probably shouldn't be doing it.

Actually, since I talked about the Love Your Melon example, I do have to say these, I call them kids because when I met them, they were kids, but now, they're awesome men with kids and my dear friends. But they saw really early on that getting attention and not being the ones who had to answer their phone and write all of the press releases and get all of the photos to the reporters, they saw that they couldn't do it well anymore, and that their best efforts were spent in, whether it was running the business and figuring out how to run the business as well as they could or be part of the storytelling.

And so, that was the engagement point. Now, obviously, it cost money, but I will tell you there, I mean, in being in business for over 20 years, I have never questioned what I pay for experts that I need and that help me. And when I say that, I mean attorneys, accountants, tax people. And so, you have to put PR and marketing in a bucket like that at some point. And I have found that some of the best startups that we've worked with have said, "Okay, so we are going to do our budget. We want to hit this sales goal. And we are going to take 10% of that sales goal and put it towards marketing." So, what are we going to do with that? In today's data-driven world, that's a really great way to help to determine buckets, and also, to inspire the partners that you want to work with, to help them to create solutions that will serve your business.

Kramer: Every episode, we have an LBIdea or a key takeaway. And the key takeaway here is to consider influence.

Walsko: We are all always being influenced. And so, pay attention to that as a consumer. But also, from a worldly perspective and, kind of, in the vein of what I got from my amazing time at Leeds and at 91ÃÛÌÒ¸ó, was also considered the influence that you have on others. And if you can think about that all the time, I think we all would be a little better off.

Kramer: Fantastic. Can you talk to us about the latest trends and what to expect in PR in the upcoming year or two? Or, feel free to go beyond, if you'd like.

Walsko: Sure. I think that there is going to be a return to credibility for a media outlet, even a social media outlet, in part because there is an oversaturation right now of whether it is targeted ads, whether it is any kind of data, it gets a little bit creepy. I also think people have been talking so much about AI and ChatGPT and the whole idea that things can be created. Data, information, photos, video can be created by a computer and not assessed by a human being is going to help with the rise of something, some sort of stamp of approval that will help people. And they're probably going to have to pay for it, but will help them to cut through the clutter.

I do believe that, even with that being said, there is going to be a continued focus on the individual. And you're seeing it right now. Influencers has evolved. We went from wanting to see everybody's glossy photos to appreciating real life. And that's going to continue, because we're going to find other little unique parts of ourselves that we're going to want to see in other people.

Finally, I do believe that, as we are looking at our news bucket in, sort of, PR media relations work, I do believe that there is going to be a continued rise of affiliate marketing, which is people or media outlets being paid for getting your attention and you making a consumer decision.

So, that air fryer that the New York Times writes about and they get a cut from, there is going to be more and more and more of that kind of media happening, and it's going to continue to rise.

Kramer: Thank you so much, Alexis, for that insight. And thank you for joining us today on the Leeds Business Insights Podcast.

Walsko: Oh, Amanda, thank you for having me. That was so much fun.

Kramer: Thank you again for listening to Leeds Business Insights. Don't miss a single episode, subscribe to Leeds Business Insights wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find more information about our podcast series at leeds.ly/LBIpodcast. If you’ve enjoy this episode, you may also enjoy Creative Distillation, an entrepreneurship research podcast from the Leeds School of Business. Check it out at pod.link/creativedistillation.

Leeds Business Insights Podcast is a production of Leeds School of Business and is produced by University FM. We'll see you next time.